part 1. .
she was suspecting me that i'm no longer interested in the borg, and she was trying to get a confession.
this is how our conversation went out.
Hi, Is that two separate people or one? There is a Witness that I knew that was a professor in biology at St Georges University Grenada.
Hello Thomas,
They're two. the professor was from south africa and his work can be found here:
http://web.archive.org/web/20080602042613/http://www.dimaggio.org/Heretic/critical.htm
part 1. .
she was suspecting me that i'm no longer interested in the borg, and she was trying to get a confession.
this is how our conversation went out.
A person who really doesn't believe the JW religion is "the truth" should really be careful not to give any indication that they are acknowledging and/or confirming to any JW that the Watchtower religion is "the truth". If any JW wants to play "the truth" card, you actually have the advantage to mention all the changes in the truth, therefore those truths were lies, therefore we have no reason to believe "new truths" are truths. Of course the JW preprogrammed response is "new light". You shut that down with "sorry, but that new light BS doesn't cut it!". Then again, those who are trying to keep from getting DF'd for family reasons may simply agree using anti-theocratic theocratic warfare statements.
AlphaMan,
So true. the "New Light" is just a sugar coated : "Oppss we f***ed up". But with their arrogance they blame it to the light getting brighter. (but not always, light will also get dimmer)
part 1. .
she was suspecting me that i'm no longer interested in the borg, and she was trying to get a confession.
this is how our conversation went out.
I don't know if anything will make a dent in this lady's cult controlled mind. You handled it brilliantly though, I thought you really said the right things to get her to think, but it seems like she was in defense mode or making excuses for everything the WT Society says or does. It drives me crazy when JW's say that they have the " truth " - then when we try to say " I AM looking ino the truth " , they say " you know what I mean ! " I had a JW I once knew do that to me several years ago in a conversation. I just kept saying " I HAVE the truth ! " and " I AM the truth ! I'm a very truthful person ! " It blew her mind and frustrated her that she couldn' get me to admit JW's have " the truth ".
Flipper,
It really amuses me that the word "truth" is one of the most abused term used the JWs' jargon. It enfuses them with arrogance, giving them the illution of possesing superior knowledge, the absolute certainty of knowing everthing in unverse. hahahahaha!
part 1. .
she was suspecting me that i'm no longer interested in the borg, and she was trying to get a confession.
this is how our conversation went out.
God or no God, we have to rely on our own thinking - if we don't, we're screwed.
If I left everything to Jehovah ... nothing would get done!
So true! thanks LoveUnihate. It seems that them thinking knowing the thoughts of God is a self perpetuating illusion that infects us from attending KHmeetings.
part 1. .
she was suspecting me that i'm no longer interested in the borg, and she was trying to get a confession.
this is how our conversation went out.
That was an interesting conversation. She came out with all the expected jw nonesense though. You handled yourself well, I am glad you showed her respect, friendship and gave her your time. You showed her you are nice even though you have left.
Thanks. Im more of an agnosti c/atheist now. but i'm trying to converse with her as close as i could from her religious frame.
part 1. .
she was suspecting me that i'm no longer interested in the borg, and she was trying to get a confession.
this is how our conversation went out.
From you discussion you posted, I think your friend would do well to learn that sincerity is not the same thing as humility. And a person can be sincere while simultaneously being arrogant.
Arrogance: offensive display of superiority or self-importance; overbearing pride. Claiming to have abilities or knowledge that one doesn't actually have.
Just because she has good intentions does not mean she has good facts. Sincerity is not a metric for determining the truth of a claim.
Nice! thats something to think about. Reminds me of another quote:
part 2. .
she was suspecting me that i'm no longer interested in the borg, and she was trying to get a confession.
names replaced with xxxx and yyyy.. .
Part 2
She was suspecting me that I'm no longer interested in the Borg, and she was trying to get a confession. This is how our conversation went out. Names replaced with XXXX and YYYY.
Me: Now its time for me to ask you back. Do you have an open mind? reserving a possibility that our ideas and beliefs can be wrong?
She: My mind is open, of course. But ONLY to ideas that are in harmony with the Bible. And as regards reservations about our beliefs, nope, I don't have such doubts. And through the years, my faith has been strengthened all the more by all the evidence I have seen, in my personal life and in many other ways. No room for doubts...
At the office, we are always reminded to have an open mind, to take into consideration the suggestions of the younger ones and never to think hst oir ideas are always right just because we have worked longer at Bethel.
There's a nice topic from Watchtower the other week. The title was, "Are You Convinced You Have the Truth? Why?" That was a clincher.
Oh well, I don't expect you to believe me naman...Hahaha
XXXX, I am happy serving Jehovah, our dear brothers, and helping others learn about Jehovah and REALLY love him. my life has many tragedies XXXX, but I have proven time and again that there is no other better way to go but to love Jehovah with my whole being. That's all.
Me: ok that's good!
back to the point. so your selective on ideas, but have made up your mind on belief, having "No room for doubts" on our beliefs, are you implying that what we believe is infallible?
She: The Bible IS infallible, because it is from Jehovah, but our understanding of the Scriptures gets refined over the years. Just gets clearer and clearer. Jehovah sees to it that it will. (Prov. 4:18)
These is my favorite qoute, XXXX:
"In contrast with humans, who have a limited life span, Jehovah never feels pressured by time to reveal his secrets prematurely. This fact should prevent us from becoming impatient when certain Bible questions cannot presently be explained to our satisfaction. Jehovah, in his own due time and in his own way, will continue to reveal his secrets as to his purposes. Never should we become impatient with Jehovah’s arrangement, indiscreetly trying to rush ahead of the Revealer of secrets."—w97 6/1 pp. 13-14.
my point is, whatever thoughts Jehovah has, there i go. I may not understand all now but I will wait on him. The Israelites did not understand all the reasons why, but those who were obedient were blessed. Jesus' disciples did not understand everything he taught at the time, yet many of them remained loyal to him. As Peter said, "Whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life. " I want to have the same attitude.
Me: so it seems its our capacity to understand the bible and our beliefs from it, will change, and get refined as time pass, based on your comments. this progressive perception on biblical interpretation is an indication THAT WE ARE MAKING MISTAKES, THE PRICE FOR LEARNING. It's like every other human endeavor, where we always see the progress from simplicity to complexity as time passes. Science and technology are two great examples; as time passes methods get refined, procedures gets optimized, new ways being discovered, AND MISTAKES ARE IDENTIFIED AND GETS CORRECTED. Nothing wrong with that, as long as we can see and recognize the fallibility of our perception. Thus in other words, we should at times question and doubt our beliefs. self examining doesn't indicate haughtiness or being egocentric, RATHER IT IS AN INDICATION THAT WE ARE SMART ENOUGH TO RECOGNIZE OUR LIMITATION AND HAVE THE HUMILITY TO ACCEPT IT. Only then, I can see, we are able to make real progress.
She: We're interpreting the Bible, XXXX. You know that. The Bible interprets itself. You just have to really study. That's what the apostles had to do. I don't know what's gotten into you, XXXX...it pains me that is the way you think...don't you have faith in the channel Jehovah is using? That in his own due time, all will be clear and that we should keep pace with his organization? What about your dedication to him? Do you honestly think that He's not affected on your thinking right now. You could not even mention his name...
Questioning and doubting are not Jehovah's way of doing matters. James 1:5. Sighs...it's very sad...James 1:5, 6. Do you even read the Bible pa rin?
Look, I will not force you to believe what I am saying, okay? But I want to do things Jehovah's way. Self-examination IN THE LIGHT OF THE SACRED WRITINGS that he himself gave for our benefit. Di ako nagmamarunong o nagmamalinis...marami pa akong gustong i-improve sa buhay ko. Ni wala pa nga ako sa katiting ng faith na ipinakita ng parents ko until their death...At ayoko ring isipin na mas magaling pa ako sa millions of other brothers and sisters who are a lot more intelligent and still remain in step with Jehovah's organization. Yun lang po...
XXXX, you are my brother and friend. I just hope you will pray about this...please...Bye...
Me: about the "waiting for Jehovah to reveal his secrets", He is always revealing his secrets in many ways not just in the Bible, or exclusively from the bible or from the Governing body alone. He talks to us in many different ways, from everyday activities valuable lessons can be obtained, from nature he can teach us about his qualities and his wisdom as Paul asserts: “His [God’s] invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, BECAUSE THEY ARE PERCEIVED BY THE THINGS MADE, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable.” (Romans 1:20).
Thus learning from our world, from the universe, and in everyday activities, can be learning from God. Today, the best methodology to learn is called science, it's a streamlined way for us to determine reality and effectively filter out our innate human biases. There seems no monopoly, a sole agency, to dispense God's knowledge.
She: Oo naman, there are two basic ways to learn about Jehovah--through the Bible and Bible-based publications and through his creation and his ways of dealing with us.
XXXX, just spit it out. Are you implying that we should not trust the Governing Body as Jehovah's channel for dispensing spiritual food?
Me: Trust! but be careful, they too are humans and make errors, you even said that they are not infallible. They may have high accuracy when teaching spiritual lessons BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE THEM EXPERTS IN SCIENTIFIC MATTERS.
She: Because if you don't, there's no use for this conversation, because I do, I really do...and I know that Jehovah does, too. Science apart from the Bible cannot be true science...
"Today, the best methodology to learn is called science, it's a streamlined way for us to determine reality and effectively filter out our innate human biases." -- Do you even know what you are talking about?
Me: Of course i do. do you have any other effective methodology to study nature and our universe?
She: And has your focusing on science drawn you closer to Jehovah?? obviously it has not. you're no longer active!
Me: Unfortunately, science it seems can ONLY help us perceived nature more accurately, bringing our perception closer to reality.
She: XXXX, i'll end our conversation...i hope you pray and think the things i say...before it's too late... i wish you can talk to the elders to change your mind...i have to be frank. you are walking on a dangerous path, and as your friend, I am trying to help you...i insist please think and pray about it...Bye .
".....coz much of the so-called scientific stuff they promote draws people away from the true God by promoting evolution!"
Me: Look, God and Evolution are not mutually exclusive. Evolution is only the process that science has discovered that answers how the diversity of life occurred. It does not address how life started. It can be the program that the almighty used in process of creating diverse life forms.
She: Just as i said...tsk...I am sorry, XXXX, but this is where I draw the line. Evolution and Jehovah God simply do not collocate...sorry XXXX, but I have to stop talking about this. You've gone too far and its scary. I am sorry po
part 1. .
she was suspecting me that i'm no longer interested in the borg, and she was trying to get a confession.
this is how our conversation went out.
Part 1
She was suspecting me that I'm no longer interested in the Borg, and she was trying to get a confession. This is how our conversation went out. Names replaced with XXXX and YYYY.
She: can i ask a question?
me: sure, don't make it difficult.
she: we've been friends since childhood, right? I always wonder how you are doing. Okay, here's the question...how are you doing spiritually, my brother?
me: by your standards not good. not that I've been doing bad things, I seldom attend meetings.
she: You know it's not MY standards, right?
me: true, but i know you live your life that way, you been excellent in following our faith, you've made the truth your own.
she: Don't worry brother, i never get offended man by anything you say. As i've said, the most important is the concern and worry. We've been friends since kids!
she: How do you feel about the truth, XXXX?
Me: The search for truth is the ultimate and lifelong goal. so im always seeking the truth, even though i knew my brain can only understand a small portion of it. hehehhehe. as Carl Sagan wrote: “The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with. It may be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true.”
She: You know what i mean, XXX, and you even said it...I mean THE truth...
me: ahh, sorry, religious truth, as i said im not doing good as i have doubts and no longer regular at meetings. My brain is switching between two meanings of truth, religious meaning, and the opposite of lie and reality or being in accord with fact or reality.
She: sorry just arrived from the meetings...XXXX, another question...Are you happy right now? I mean, the real inner joy.
Me: Well, i have ups and downs just like others, but generally life is just okey. Doesn't mean that everything is ok. have frustrations at times, but in wider scope, its alright, and at times quite rewarding.
She: So do you think I am wasting my time 'slaving for Jehovah'? Sorry XXXX , but you know i view you as family. Even though no communication, that doesn't mean you and your family are no longer important to me. Your father was the speaker at my baptism, and you are really our family friends. Can't help but worry about you, the way I worry about other friends who are drifting away or have left Jehovah for good... I am deeply grieved that you are having doubts...
Me: I didn't say that, since we have our own ways to fulfill our goals. If that is gratifying and brings you joy then its not time wasted. we live a very short period in time and we should make the most out of it in our own way.
YYYY, dont be sorry for being upfront. I have admire you for making such questions. Regardless how different our paths took as time pass, you are always part of my beautiful memories and be treasured as a friend. And worry not, my goal is always about seeking the truth. I believe truth is just one and is not segment into compartments such as religious and scientific truth. Someday humanity will eventually understand better a universal truth. hahahha, that is just a conjecture though.
doubt is not always bad as it can encourage one to dig dipper, to investigate, and conduct further research that may confirm or disprove certain ideas and notions. as humans we are always prone for error and bias, so its always good to self examine. and this is what i meant when i say doubt.do you think thats wrong YYYY?or to put it in your own jargon, do you think im wasting my time?
When i was on high-school my dad conducted a bible study with me, he choose the Life-how did it get here? By Evolution or Creation? book since all other books were already familiar to me and since i myself have been using the "You can live" in my bible studies. This in order to keep my studies more challenging since i have many question about the topic, so he thought. And he was right because i was delighted and enthusiastic about studies
this made me a staunch defender in our school on debates about Creation vs Evolution.having read it several times already, i was very familiar with its argumentation.however, when i was in my early twenties, upon further encounters in preaching with people in CEB about this topic i found myself lacking in scientific and clinical data to support my stand. this has encourage me to reevaluate and reexamine my stance, and this has change my view because i found many errors on our book. A brother and a professor in biology in a university help me by detailing many of this points on a letter. I tried to carefully read his points thoroughly as i have read our book and the same persistent errors are always confirmed. Upon pondering and humility i accepted these, and has changed my views ever since.
here is the letter that you may critically examine: A critical analysis of the scientific material in the book.docx (gave her a link)
she: Its really difficult if we just base on any human opinion...Jehovah can answer those, at the right time...in the meantime, there are more important things to busy ourselves with...there are issues a lot bigger than things we may want to delve into. Jehovah's right to rule and our own loyalty are still the biggest issues...
Me: No, its not about others opinions, its about honesty and being truthful in making statements and publishing books. (and especially more important when we claim to be inspired by God)
She: XXXX, you know the organization has never claimed to be INSPIRED by God. Only the Bible writers were inspired, or literally, God-breathed. But you can't blind yourself to the fact that this is the only organization that has overwhelming proof of the BACKING of Jehovah's spirit. Besides, the faithful slave has never claimed to be INFALLIBLE. That's exactly the reason why over the years, refinements have been made in our understanding of Bible truths. And that is fulfillment of Prov. 4:18. The faithful slave is never too proud to admit that some of our beliefs do need to be refined. THAT is honesty, humility, and modesty. If we are too impatient and try to find truth apart from Jehovah's pure teachings, then we will always be at the losing end. That is a fact. And the sad part is, in our efforts to delve too much into matters that are not of the utmost importance at the present time, we are already lagging too far behind the celestial chariot. (Deep sigh)
XXXX, I won't force you to believe me. who am I? Im just an ordinary human...Even scientists like Albert Einstein or Isaac Newton won't be able to convince you if you have already made up your mind...And most of all, the Creator and owner of the universe himself, Jehovah God, will NEVER force us to believe him or even serve him. But we cannot escape this fact: Unless we use our life to serve Jehovah, we will always feel empty. No matter how hard we try to find the truth, if it is not according to his way, we will still end up frustrated. We will grow old full of regrets. AND we create more pain to Jehovah and hurt ourselves, too. I don't want you to experience that, XXXX. Please, my friends, just think about it...and hopefully, PRAYERFULLY...I'll end our conversation here, ok?...
I mean, my friend. I have to be honest, you make my hair stand on end by your thinking...sorry...I can't believe you've gone that far na...
Me: Its ok YYYY. I perfectly understand your position having been raised as such. However, contrary to what you emphasize, im not blind. I'm always open to new ideas. As the society put it in the creation book "we need to consider the evidence with an open mind", and have since followed that advice.
sorry for the word i said about being "inspired". We have been taught that the bible is inspired and the societies book were guided by God. However, when i do a simple search, "inspired" "guided" or "directed" all convey the same idea and are just synonymous and can be used interchangeably on certain sentences. She: It's not just about being raised as a Witness. Like Timothy in Bible times, I also had to make a lot of effort to make sure that what I believe in IS the truth and and that im not decieved. After 26 years? The more im convinced that my efforts were not wasted.
XXXX, you tell me to do research? Well, thats always part of our work. when you say 'synonyms,' in English grammar they don't mean exactly the same, they are just similar. In Greek, 'inspired of God' literally means 'God-breathed.' He used his holy spirit to put into their minds what to write for our benefit. The faithful slave nowadays prayerfully relies on the sacred writings to help us stay firm in the faith. Hayyy...I don't want to argue either...mukhang walang patutunguhan eh...you've made up your mind...kaka-sad lang...
I'm not upset for myself, if that's what you mean...I just feel jealous for Jehovag God...it's okay XXXX...
Me: Thanks for the concern YYYY, i hope i didn't ruin your day. Be assured that my mind is not "made up" already. A locked up mind is a stagnant one and i always try to avoid such. Im always open to someone who can point out errors in my judgment. progress can only be achieved by realizing our past errors and correcting it. btw, im not encouraging you to leave "Jehovah and his son", if that's what you think Im doing. Just explaining to you about my story since you ask.
She: You sound too intellectual na tlg! I know you are not encouraging me to do that, but its what you imply...
i was just thinking about how the watchtower often compares the organization's position to that of moses.
challenging moses, in their retelling of the biblical account, equated challenging god's authority, as korah, dathan, and abiram did, to their own peril.
the conclusion we are to gain from this is not to challenge, question, or disagree with the watchtower society's teachings even in our private thoughts.
sd-7,
Thats a good paralellism too! Good analogy. :)
i was thinking the other day about the fascinating dichotomy of how the creation of the universe plays a role in the belief system of believers and non-believers.
it is the difference between a top-down vs. bottom-up view of reality.
in this post i'm mainly disucssing highly rational, scientific type believers and non-believers, open to fully exploring their belief system, of which i have talked to many.. to the non-believer, the creation event, the big bang, is the one utterly unexplainable event.
Religion has developed a haughty attitude throughout the ages making it unwilling and unable to spot its flaws and correct its understanding of our natural world. I think the reason why this is, because it has not developed a mechanism to critically check its beliefs, biases, and rush & dirty conclusions against reality. By its very nature it has become an enemy of reason and science, hindering human progress throughout the late centuries.
Victor J. Stenger says:
Faith is belief in the absence of supportive evidence and even in the light of contrary evidence. No one disputes that religion is based on faith. Some theologians, Christian apologists, and even a few secular scholars claim that science is also based on faith. They argue that science takes it on faith that the world is rational and that Nature can be ordered in an intelligible way.
However, science makes no such assumption on faith. It analyzes observations by applying certain methodological rules and formulates models to describe those observations. It justifies that process by its practical success, not by any logical deduction derived from dubious metaphysical assumptions. WE MUST DISTINGUISH FAITH FROM TRUST. Science has earned our trust by its proven success. Religion has destroyed our trust by its repeated failure.
Using the empirical method, science has eliminated smallpox, flown men to the moon, and discovered DNA. If science did not work, we wouldn't do it. Relying on faith, religion has brought us inquisitions, holy wars, and intolerance. Religion does not work, but we still do it.
Science and religion are fundamentally incompatible because of their unequivocally opposed epistemologies—the separate assumptions they make concerning what we can know about the world. Every human alive is aware of a world that seems to exist outside the body, the world of sensory experience we call the natural. Science is the systematic study of the observations made of the natural world with our senses and scientific instruments, and the application to human needs of the knowledge obtained.
By contrast, all major religions teach that humans possess an additional “inner” sense that allows us to access a realm lying beyond the visible world—a divine, transcendent reality we call the supernatural. If it does not involve the transcendent, it is not religion. Religion is a set of practices intended to communicate with that invisible world so that we can either cause forces from it to affect things here or at least apply insights gained from it to human needs.
